Carrie and Danielle - Latest Comments in Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Kia — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 22:18:52 -0000

I agree with much of what Leslie said, as well as many of the other wonderful women who have responded to these discussions. I think the issue comes down to choice, respect and trust. Whether you want to be drugged, at home, induces, hospitalized, etc, you should have trained helpers of whatever kind who respect your wishes, put aside their own biases as much as possible and present you with the benefits and risks of your decisions and then help you along your journey b/c that is what having children, or better yet, being human, a woman and a mother is. Whether you think it is painful or nothing but joy- you deserve to have the best birthing experience you can have. You should feel that supportive people are surrounding you to make sure that you can do your job effectively and efficently- the job at hand being the delivery of a healthy child. Considering that it is a job that nature designed (God- for the religious like me) no other person should tell you how you should do it. It is about you and your body and what you feel you need. Emergencies and unexpected events happen that can change our plans- that's life. No one would argue that and most would be willing to do whatever needs to be done to ensure the safety of mother and child. But are most childbirths medical anomolies that require unnecessary medical interventions? From myown experience i would say no. If you feel differently more power to you. Your choice, my choice- we should all feel empowered.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Danielle LaPorte — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 19:10:17 -0000

Homebirther,
You may want to check it out our latest convo on birthing:
http://carrieanddanielle.com/the-business-of-be...

xo
Danielle

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Danielle LaPorte — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 19:09:14 -0000

M: You may want to check it out our latest convo on birthing:
http://carrieanddanielle.com/the-business-of-be...

xo
Danielle

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Danielle LaPorte — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 19:08:11 -0000

Kia, you may want to check out our current birthing discussion:

http://carrieanddanielle.com/the-business-of-be...

xo
Danielle

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Danielle LaPorte — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 19:07:27 -0000

hey Mango Mama (I just visited your blog!) and all you other conscious mamas...there is a very heated conversation going on on another blog we did this week on The Business of Being Born. You may want to check it out:
http://carrieanddanielle.com/the-business-of-be...

xo
Danielle

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Homebirther — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:54:10 -0000

Danielle,

Thanks for sharing your story and getting the word out about the beauty of refuting the cultural myth about birth!!! I had my first baby in a hospital and my second and third at home - the best thing i ever did for myself and my babies. I had to fight against lots of medical mumbo-jumbo for that first homebirth and it ended up being the most transcendent experience of my life.
Another side effect of hospital birth worth mentioning is the ballooning rate of postpartum depression that is occuring as more and more women are subject to the birth machine. I suffered with it for 18months following my first childs traumatic birth and that was one of my motivations for birthing at home. It is so sad to see these mamas drowning in new motherhood instead of revelling. I am so happy to see you saying something about it since it seems "off-topic" for your site. Also, maybe enjoy our blog at www.betterbirthcoalition.blogspot.com

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Lee-Anne — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:07:18 -0000

As mom to two healthy boys, both born in hospital, one in the supportive presence of our midwife, I am all over choice for women.

My birthing experiences were both full of choice and I firmly believe that made them go well. Even in the face of emergency complications for our second son, I felt the support and presence of my midwife AND was so grateful for the medical intervention he needed to survive.

I'm effusive in my praise for my midwives - having supported and guided me through a time when I faced two deaths in my immediate family. Why everyone shouldn't have this choice is completely unfathomable to me.

My pre-natal exams, on the red velvet couch, with soft music will ever be part of brining my son into the world. Same with the gentle words of encouragement and unhurried space to allow me to cry when I needed to when juggling both birth and death.

For my first birth where we didn't have a midwife (it wasn't yet covered by medical insurance) I chose my doctor based on the simple reality that he supported & works with midwives.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Kate — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:58:04 -0000

I wanted to respond to lesley and Angela.

I started off my pregnancy with a family doctor - a woman - whom I really liked and trusted, but she told me that at 30 weeks I would have to leave her and go with an OB as she no longer attended births. I wasn't a big fan of this, and when i asked her if that OB would be the one to attend my birth, she said probably not. I'd end up getting whoever was on call that night. A complete stranger. I felt tense just thinking about it.

I completely respected her choice not to deliver babies - she had her own 2 young children - but I really didn't want to switch caregivers so late in my pregnancy, only to be stuck with someone new again during my delivery. I spent a week worrying about it. Walking the seawall. I finally decided to leave my doctor and go with a midwifery practice, because the trust was just not there for me. In short, it was too much of a crapshoot.

As both of you pointed out, it's a matter of trust. But unfortunately, it's hard to trust someone you've never met, or only got to know over a few weeks. This is ultimately why I decided to leave the traditional medical system and why I ended up with a homebirth. I had a team of fantastic midwives who spent a hour with me each appointment. They would be there for my delivery - guaranteed, whether it was at hospital or at home. And they'd be there for me afterwards.

One of whom told me very clearly that she would defer to me: if I felt that anything was going wrong for any reason, we would transfer to the hospital straight away. I was to trust my gut. She had been trained in NEw Zealand, which is where I'm from. Midwifery is very common there, and I felt like I got her in a way I just didn't with the other medical professionals I met. And she was very no-nonsense. I knew she'd have no problem calling a halt if things weren't going well. I trusted her.

My baby was born at home, fast labour, no complications, but what is most revealing, from my point of view, is that I felt completely at home and safe the whole time. I actually wasn't that committed to having a home birth - I left the door open to going to the hospital - but in the end, I never felt I needed to be there. I really feel my midwife by empowering ME to trust my own instincts helped me have a safe birth.

Thanks ladies for a great and interesting conversation.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Lesley — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:17:52 -0000

Dear Danielle,
Thanks for taking the time to take a stance about something so near and dear to your heart, and for allowing others to share their own experiences. I agree compleltely that it is essential that we maintain the ability to exercise choice.
It is sometimes hard to know what is best, not just for mum, but for babe too. Thinking of what is best for both is necessary, and ideally we will continue to refine a selection of choices where both mamma and child are best cared for.

I have perhaps a unique perspective in that I've delivered babies during my training as a physician and I"ve had two babies as a mother. I've seen firsthand the good, the bad and the ugly. My best friend is an ob/gyne, and her stories at times make even my toes curl because childbirth always has a bit of an element of roulette to it. Things can change on a dime, for mother and for child.

Having said all that, I completely have a holistic view of health care and believe in the innate wisdom of the body. I did everything under the sun when my first born was breech, to turn him around so I could have a vaginal delivery. t was during that time that I discovered "Birthing From Within" - amazing. It made me determined to not have an epidural if at all possible, as I hadn't been previously aware of all the potential negative consequences to babe. My second child was 11 lb 5 oz and likely would not have come out vaginally if I had had an epidural as I was able to move around so much more without one. In both labours I had a birth doula, and an amazing family physician who delivered my children, who waited, patiently, when labour slowed down, and who honoured my choices.

For me, it was a no brainer to deliver in hosptial. I"m comfortable there, and they have nice things like suction, oxygen, IVs and neonatologists. Our medical system is still not set up well to handle emergencies emerging from home births. Unlike Europe, hospitals are futher apart here, and our ambulance attendants are not trained neonatologists. Again, toe curling stories from my colleagues also determined my choice, BUT I did it my way. And all were very happy to accommodate. Maybe because I was a doctor, or maybe because I was grounded in all my decisions, open to feedback, but very clear on my choices.

Lastly, I'd like to offer some direct comments to yours Danielle. Epidurals are not a revenue stream in Canada. There is no financial incentive for an epidural. If anything, epidurals slow down labour. Anesthetists don't give kickbacks to doctors or midwives and usually are already so busy, there is no incentive on their part to do one or not.
Secondly, Caesarian sections are not cost-effective at all. There is a greater cost in fact. Usually after a normal vaginal delivery, mommas and children go home after 24 hrs. C-sections mammas need to stay 72 hrs minimum. Complication rates are slightly higher, meaning more cost to the medical care system. C-sections take O.R. time and nurses and this also costs money. Unlike the U.S., hospitals in Canada don't get more money from patients or insurance companies for more complicated care...they work under a fixed budget.
About shift times and C-sections...I haven't seen stats, so can't comment directly other than knowing it is harder to give the same level of care to someone you just met vs. someone you've been monitoring the whole time. My same best friend had a colleague hand over at the end of the workday a mom who wasn't progressing well and my best friend was on call. Shortly, mum and babe took a turn for the worse, and needed C-section. The baby died during the C-section due to complications. My best friend still feels horrible, has terrible memories and never wants that to happen again- who would? Maybe the same outcome would have happened if the original doctor had done the C-section, but maybe not. Childbirth is alwsys has an element of roulette to it. I believe completely in intution, yet truly, you never know for certain how it's going to go.

The bottom line, which I hope you will agree with, is that when you make a choice, it needs to be an informed choice. Clearly, medical professionals are going to have a view from their perspective, but this opinion will vary from person to person. There are many doctors, nurses, midwives out there who are fabulous to work with, in any setting. What is most important is to set your intention to have a safe birth in a nurturing environment with a positive experience...and then surrender to the experience that you do have.

Lesley

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Angela — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 01:51:45 -0000

Well, I'm in the minority here. And while I respect the other women's opinions posted here I hope they will also respect mine. I work on the labor & delivery floor of a hospital. Not all hospitals may be the same. We try to accomodate patients' every aspect of their birth plan (wishes for labor, delivery and recovery). I feel that bringing a child into this world is an enormous responsibility, not to be taken lightly. Things can go wrong in a heartbeat - literally! With the advancement of modern medicine in the last 100 years, the last place I would want to give birth is at home! I don't think I could trust the Nurse Midwife enough to admit when things are beyond her comfort level, and that she needs help. And trust is key here! Even in a hospital setting, there are some family practice doctors that I wouldn't trust to delivery my child because I wouldn't trust them to admit things have gotten beyond their skill/comfort level in a timely enough manner to help me and my unborn child.
In all fairness, I did have an opportunity to see this film and I passed #1) because I felt I'd see way more of Ricki Lake than I need or care to, and #2) because I didn't think it would change my opinion on the matter. I feel that home births are enourmously risky and a throwback to the 1800s when maternal and fetal death rates were much higher. It's not for me.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Laura — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:18:01 -0000

Brava to all you stories! I've read The Birth House and loved it.

Birthing our children is just one knot on a long red ribbon of experiences for which women's wisdom and ways of knowing must be reclaimed. As a culture we have lost the art of initiating out daughters into the Blood Mysteries of menarche, menstruation, ovulation, sexuality, conception, pregnancy, nursing, mothering - and the wisdom and creativity that awaits beyond menopause. The disconnect from the body starts early as we hand over responsibility for our sexual and reproductive health and wellness to a medical community that seems intent on "fixing" (usually with drugs) all that is wrong with the female body and mind.

For the American Medical Association (AMA) to vote to seek to prevent home births and to increase MD control over midwives is to state clearly that as a profession they do not believe or trust that women know what's best for us and our children. Witches, Midwives and Nurses: A History of Women Healers By Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English tells exactly how and why midwifery vanished in North America but continued to thrive in Europe. It was all about power and stupidity. And now history repeats itself.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Jennifer Sage — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:08:53 -0000

I am delighted to see the response to this posting.

The choice who is present at a birth is always the labouring and birthing women's choice. She should be the one to "invite". It is sacred and private. The energy flow toward her always.

I still got tears in my eyes though whenever I saw another women who had given birth witness a birth. From young girls with eyes wide open to the oldest about 70. Something changed. A piece of a lived experience handed down through generations. Only a women who has given birth has the real authority to gaze deep into another womens eyes and say "Yes you can. I know you can" at those challenging moments a birth brings.

The inward moments of reflection afterward for a women seeing anothers baby born. If you are fortunate enough to witness and support another women labouring and birthing you are bonded in aspecial way to that child and your relationship to the mother of the new baby will be deepened. Always wait to be asked though.

you are there to meet her needs not yours.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Michelle — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:44:41 -0000

What I appreciate about your piece Danielle is your respect for the need for women to feel great about whatever choice they make. I had hoped to birth my first daughter at home, with the support of midwife, doula and my husband Eric. After 20+ hours of labouring at home I ended up in hopsital for a host of reasons that don't really matter. It was deemed by the all of us a the best choice to make for myself and our baby. At hospital I experienced many of the interventions, including an epidural, I had so passionately wanted to avoid. Our beautiful daughter, Tecla, was born after 2.5 hours of pushing. I was so happy to push her out - with lots of sensation. On the whole it was positive - the one nurse who joined in my care was kind and helpful but the midwife ran the show 100%. My experience was positive in the moment. However, it was in the months following my baby's birth that I began to feel incomplete with the birth. The story I was telling myself was that I ended up in hosptial b/c I was not 'capable' of birthing at home without interventions. I hurt myself a lot with this misbelief. I've done some healing work and feel a new freedom around my birth story. I share all of this to give voice to the struggle it can be for women to accept and embrace their experience however it rolls out. Be gentle with yourselfs Mamas.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

SRead — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:33:24 -0000

Perhaps I should give credit to my own mother for being a pioneer. In 1960 she refused to take thalidomide or have an epidermal...she had to be resolved in her determination to resist the recommendations of "professionals". She had grown up on a ranch, assisting in birthing calves and foals and knew from experience what mother nature had in mind. I think she is still bitter about the loss of two babies while in hospitals. I remember her telling me that after a still birth she was asked to express milk for bottle feeding premature babies, which in itself is interesting since breastfeeding was not in vogue at that time. I'm hopeful that when the time comes my daughters will have more choices. We have women come to our rural community to stay in oceanside beach houses to be close to the midwives and doulas that live in our area, and we also have local women who choose to deliver in the city hospital with their doula or midwife in tow. A dear friend of mine is a midwife and her husband a surgeon and they recommend being in or near a hospital because of all the things that may go wrong. Of course they had the unfortunate experience of having everything go wrong and have a son with Cerebral Palsy...this in their own hospital with collegues attending that seemed to be rendered helpless. Our surgeon father ran the newborn down the hall to a respirator to save his own son's life........and yes there was a lawsuit! I think we all need to be somewhat skeptical and selective when it comes to placing our trust in those who guide us.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Nicole Turner — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:29:45 -0000

I cannot express enough how thrilled and grateful I am that you wrote this piece. I too had a home birth. My son was born April 28, 2005. I was in labor for 30 hours and 15 of it was pure agony but I do not regret it one bit and will do it again. People looked at me like I had two heads when I said I was having a home birth and I faced much opposition to my decision but I so strongly believe in home births and midwifery that I maintained my position and am so happy I did. It's definitely a cause I want to get more involved in. It deeply saddens me how abusive the medical establishment is when it comes to childbirth and a woman's right to follow her instincts and desire for a natural birthing experience without unnecessary intervention. Unfortunately, not enough women know their rights or options when it comes to home births and saying no to c-sections. There really is a need for a huge campaign to promote home birth and how to prevent unnecessary c-sections when a woman chooses to give birth in a hospital. I could go on and on about this but let's just say I second everything you voiced Danielle. Thank you!!!

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Andrea Devis — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:50:13 -0000

Thank you so much Danielle for spotlighting this subject!

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Andrea Devis — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:49:08 -0000

Thank you so much for what you do!
My great aunt gave birth to her eighth child in 1977 at home. My aunt was 42 years old, has Rh factor and severe asthma. She said she wished she had done home birth with her older seven. With them she experienced asthma attacks and other complications during labor.
She said she felt comfortable in her home with her husband (he was not allowed to be present in the hospital) and midwife. Not having any drugs she felt present and ready to meet her child.

My mother was 37 when she delivered my sister at home. She said it was an amazing experience. She had been totally knocked out for my brothers and myself. She said the pain was excruciating but she preferred "being there" for it.
Several of my cousins, all nurses, have opted for birthing their children at home.
Your words embody the expressions on my relatives faces as they told me about birthing their children. Unfortunately they came from era when people would respond with "Don't you have enough money to have your child in a hospital?" Your words give weight and appreciation to the word "Choice". I am going to share them with my family.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Maureen — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:32:04 -0000

Yes! For so long I have felt nearly alone in my convictions on this topic. Thank you so much for this blog topic, and for your amazing post. I am so happy that people are talking about this issue, and that so many women (and men) are speaking out about their experiences.

Misogynist power structures would be completely deflated forever if more women ( and men) knew firsthand the divinity inherent in all of us as it is expressed in the birthing process.

Thank you, Danielle. This is so important, what you've done here.

Love, Maureen

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Jamie — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:29:00 -0000

I'm here with tears reading this post and the replies. The tears are a response to the depth of feeling about this topic, feeling steeped in love for our children, for ourselves, for who we are as women, for who we are as people. And there's also a desire to be heard, seen, loved, cared for and respected, ourselves and our children. And there's hope that these children be born into that wonderful kind of world . By insisting on safe, compassionate, respectful births, we are birthing a beautiful new world.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Polly — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:52:48 -0000

All four of my babies were born at home ( 1990, 93, 96 and 03)with a lay midwife who helps the Amish in our area. It was very underground and lonely and I found that I could not join in those "let's bitch about our horrible births " conversations with most mothers.

I saw a doctor each time once or twice, initially - because I wanted someone to have a chart on me should the need to transport arise. I once had a chart thrown at me by the doctor in the parking lot ( so professional!). Another doc told me my baby would be retarded and he sent a certified letter banning me from his office ( btw, that baby was homeschooled and just graduated - he's off to college on a full scholarship). I learned to lie a lot and burned many bridges. We never told our parents our plans until after the baby had safely arrived.

I was highly influenced by Ina May Gaskin, Sheila Kitzinger, and Suzanna Arms--"Immaculate Deception" is a must read - and The Bradley Method. There was a wave of these pioneering mothers in the 1970s - about every 20yrs it seems to come around again.
Through La Leche League I found a network of other homebirthing moms and developed great friendships.

We found that homebirth really goes along with a whole philosophy of family life, which for us also included attachment parenting, extended breastfeeding, homeschooling, non-vaxing or circ-ing.

With age, I have become less militant I think. I"ve realized I can't change the world - gotta take care of my own.

--"Natural Lustre"

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Karryn — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:56:48 -0000

Two African midwives delivered me into the world.

My mother was a product of 1950s Canada, and while living in Tanzania, she was surprised to discover that there would be no doctor present at the delivery. She said that they were baffled when she asked when the doctor was arriving. "What do you need a doctor for?" they said. That being said, she was healthy, I was healthy, it was an uncomplicated birth.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Danielle LaPorte — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:48:30 -0000

Dan...Thank you.

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Danielle LaPorte — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:47:03 -0000

yes, the sharing is vital part of making changes happen. It reminds me a quote from Audrey Lorde: If one woman were to tell her truth, teh world would crack open."

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Danielle LaPorte — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:45:34 -0000

Shannon! I had no idea you were such a pioneer!

Re: Propaganda, Mother Nature, and Your Right to Know What’s Right For You

Danielle LaPorte — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:44:15 -0000

Considering you have had two extremely different experiences, this is profound advice...that every woman should heed. Thank you so much.